How tough is tough enough?

2859 Views 19 Replies 6 Participants Last post by Sokolva, 2 mo ago

Dubyajay

Discussion Starter · 10 mo ago

Hello everyone,

I registered and introduced myself about 8 months ago and then went silent because of a series of family illnesses that took up most of my time and attention. Apologies to anyone who answered my initial post and got no response or acknowledgment.

I'm interested in members' perceptions and experiences with different woods for functional sticks that go into the back country and need to handle real stress. I've looked at different datasets of wood-species density, hardness, and strength--tensile, compression, impact--and formed a general impression of where different tree species group in terms of strength and toughness. I'm curious how well that grouping fits the experience of those who have actually made and used sticks from various woods.

American white ash and European ash might be a good benchmark for comparison. White ash, of course, is the standard wood for baseball bats in the US, and European ash has a long history of combat applications from spear and lance shafts to faction-fight cudgels. My unscientific and subjective classification has four groups: (1) tougher than ash, (2) comparable to ash, (3) somewhat less tough than ash, and (4) maybe too weak for a functional walking stick. I've mostly focused on trees found in the northeast US, so will omit many that are widely used elsewhere.

Group 1: Hickories, hornbeam, hophornbeam, Oasage orange, others?

Group 2: Yellow birch, hard (sugar, rock, black) maple, elms, white oak, red oak, dogwoods, serviceberry (aka juneberry, shadbush, Sakatoon), hawthorns, apple, pear

Group 3: American and beaked hazel, red maple, paper and gray birch, American beech, black cherry, striped maple

Group 4: Aspens and cottonwoods, basswood, linden, black alder, pin (fire) cherry, willows, American mountain ash (American rowan)

I'd value feedback on the groupings themselves and also on the idea that group 4 is not tough enough to take on a serious back-country hike. I know aspens and willows are widely used in places.

I'd also be interested in hearing about peoples experience with native North American hazels. I have a nice stand of it, along with a few hawthorns, growing right in front to my house. The whole area was cut when I moved here in 2019. It was so dense and tall that it was hard to say just what was there, and completely blocked a lovely view of the White Mountains. I was delight to see tons of native hazel growing back and am removing the aspens, maples, and basswood saplings to encourage them.

Bill

See less See more

Reactions: 1

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

dww2

· #2 · 10 mo ago

Glad you're back Dubyajay. Hope things are getting back to normal.

I'd say your groupings were pretty close to my experience with a couple of minor changes. I'd put hawthorn in Group 1 and black cherry and beech in 2. Some of the rest I haven't had enough experience with to make a good judgement, but yellow birch, maple(s) and ash are the three I use most often.

Hazel doesn't grow well in my area, so I'm no help there. I think the type of alder we have here is mostly green alder; makes a decent stick. Aspen (usually referred to as poplar or popple here) always struck me as too light so I've never tried it.

There is a mountain ash I've been keeping my eye on next to the irrigation pond my brother dug for my Dad a few years back. Growing pretty slowly with a nice shape to it so I'm hoping it'll make something decent. I know it turns nicely on a lathe.

See less See more

valky307

· #3 · 10 mo ago

I reckon I'm kind of a simpleton when it comes to wood toughness. I collect what I can find no matter the tree species. If it is sturdy, dried and hard I work it, if it's still green I bin it in my stash for down the road at a later date. I guess being on the prairie I can't be too choosy as some of yall in local finds. I've tried purchasing woods but have had mediocre results with that so I'm determined to stick to my own scavengering.

Reactions: 1

CV3

· #4 · 10 mo ago

It has been a few decades sense I roamed the back country. Most of which was in the Grand Tetons and Colorado . A 1 to 11/2 inch diameter limb or sapling of many woods will work for a trekking stick. My first choice would be one from the hickory family of trees. I also used used apple and aspen. Here is a good site to look at hardness, elastic modulus and rupture strength.
Wood Identification Guide | The Wood Database

Reactions: 1

Dubyajay

Discussion Starter · #5 · 10 mo ago

dww2 said:
Glad you're back Dubyajay. Hope things are getting back to normal.

I'd say your groupings were pretty close to my experience with a couple of minor changes. I'd put hawthorn in Group 1 and black cherry and beech in 2. Some of the rest I haven't had enough experience with to make a good judgement, but yellow birch, maple(s) and ash are the three I use most often.

Hazel doesn't grow well in my area, so I'm no help there. I think the type of alder we have here is mostly green alder; makes a decent stick. Aspen (usually referred to as poplar or popple here) always struck me as too light so I've never tried it.

There is a mountain ash I've been keeping my eye on next to the irrigation pond my brother dug for my Dad a few years back. Growing pretty slowly with a nice shape to it so I'm hoping it'll make something decent. I know it turns nicely on a lathe.

Thanks, dww21 I was on the fence about where to put hawthorn, beech, and black cherry, also serviceberry. All hard, tough woods. I have a black cherry marked for harvesting in the fall. It will be by first stick with that wood, and I'm looking forward to working with it.

I cut a handful of hazel sticks last fall. It's quite common here, and I have at least a dozen dense clumps of it in front of the house. The problem is finding stick of adequate size. Both native varieties her, American and Beaked hazel have maximum heights and diameters that are smaller than common European hazel. On top of that, they tend to grow here as a small understory shrub, with growth kept down bt shading from taller trees. I'm hoping that opening up light for them will encourage longer, thicker stems. The growth habit, multiple stems emerging from a central root mass, means that many have great natural root handles

Automotive tire Road surface Asphalt Wood Wheel

and can be sustainable harvested without killing the tree.

Automotive tire Road surface Asphalt Wood Wheel

See less See more

Reactions: 2

dww2

· #6 · 10 mo ago

Some really great blanks there, Bill. I do love a nice root handle.

Dubyajay

Discussion Starter · #7 · 10 mo ago

valky307 said:
I reckon I'm kind of a simpleton when it comes to wood toughness. I collect what I can find no matter the tree species. If it is sturdy, dried and hard I work it, if it's still green I bin it in my stash for down the road at a later date. I guess being on the prairie I can't be too choosy as some of yall in local finds. I've tried purchasing woods but have had mediocre results with that so I'm determined to stick to my own scavengering.

valky307 said:
I reckon I'm kind of a simpleton when it comes to wood toughness. I collect what I can find no matter the tree species. If it is sturdy, dried and hard I work it, if it's still green I bin it in my stash for down the road at a later date. I guess being on the prairie I can't be too choosy as some of yall in local finds. I've tried purchasing woods but have had mediocre results with that so I'm determined to stick to my own scavengering.

I've seen some of the sticks you've made from your "own scavenging!" You seem to do pretty well out there on the prairie! Your basic point about not overthinking stuff is a good one that I'll keep in mind!

Reactions: 1

Dubyajay

Discussion Starter · #8 · 10 mo ago (Edited)

CV3 said:
It has been a few decades sense I roamed the back country. Most of which was in the Grand Tetons and Colorado . A 1 to 11/2 inch diameter limb or sapling of many woods will work for a trekking stick. My first choice would be one from the hickory family of trees. I also used used apple and aspen. Here is a good site to look at hardness, elastic modulus and rupture strength.
Wood Identification Guide | The Wood Database

I'm north of the range for hickories, unfortunately. They'd certainly be among my top choices if I had access to them. Thanks for the link to The Wood Database. It's a great resource. One relevant measure it doesn't provide is impact bending--important for baseball bats, cudgels, and any application involving hard knocks. This 1999 report from USDA includes impact bending, but it has nothing like the range of species as The Wood Database: https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/ch04.pdf

Edited to include link to USDA report

CV3

· #9 · 10 mo ago

Dubyajay said:
I'm north of the range for hickories, unfortunately. They'd certainly be among my top choices if I had access to them. Thanks for the link to The Wood Database. It's a great resource. One relevant measure it doesn't provide is impact bending--important for baseball bats, cudgels, and any application involving hard knocks. This 1999 report from USDA includes impact bending, but it has nothing like the range of species as The Wood Database.

You can order hickory sticks. Treeline USA is a source. HICKORY WALKING STICK

valky307

· #10 · 10 mo ago

Hickory can be harvested in the eastern half of my state (including my county) but it's usually on private lands so hard to get. I do love working it however and have used it for toppers on canes and hiking sticks by purchasing bags of hickory chunks for smoking meats at my local grocery.

Dubyajay

Discussion Starter · #11 · 10 mo ago

valky307 said:
Hickory can be harvested in the eastern half of my state (including my county) but it's usually on private lands so hard to get. I do love working it however and have used it for toppers on canes and hiking sticks by purchasing bags of hickory chunks for smoking meats at my local grocery.

That's a great idea for topper material!

Alan0354

· #12 · 9 mo ago (Edited)

I know Hickory is very tough wood, they use it for making sticks and cane for fighting. I bought one of this:
Purpleheart Armoury

I can really lean on it and it doesn't even bend that I notice( Let's just say very very slight). I don't think you can get much tougher than that.

At 32", it's about 18oz. It's not light. It's definitely a good stick for self defense if you know how to use it and practice.

Dubyajay

Discussion Starter · #13 · 9 mo ago

Hickory is fantastic wood! Wish we had it up here. Hornbeam and hophornbeam are in the same league. Yellow birch and hard (sugar, rock) maple are also great--not as over the top tough as hickory but still plenty strong and lighter. I'm finding that good old white ash is becoming my favorite among the common local trees. It may lack the cahet of blackthorn or hazel, and the bark is drab and usually not worth retaining, but it's a good weight, elastic, impact resistant, and easy enough to work and straighten, with a growth habit that can produce great handles. Most of it is probably doomed by the ash borer, so I don't see dollar signs floating away if I harvest a clean, straight ash sapling, compared to yellow birch, hard maple, and black cherry. I expect we'll miss it when it's gone.

See less See more

Alan0354

· #14 · 9 mo ago

Ha ha, I just order the unfinished hickory cane and stain it the way I want it!!!

dww2

· #15 · 9 mo ago

Dubyajay, you might have shagbark hickory where you are (VT wasn't it?) I know we have it here in Maine. I made a few small vases with a tree I found standing dead a while back. Finishes really nice but dulls tools like crazy.

Dubyajay said:
Hickory is fantastic wood! Wish we had it up here. Hornbeam and hophornbeam are in the same league. Yellow birch and hard (sugar, rock) maple are also great--not as over the top tough as hickory but still plenty strong and lighter. I'm finding that good old white ash is becoming my favorite among the common local trees. It may lack the cahet of blackthorn or hazel, and the bark is drab and usually not worth retaining, but it's a good weight, elastic, impact resistant, and easy enough to work and straighten, with a growth habit that can produce great handles. Most of it is probably doomed by the ash borer, so I don't see dollar signs floating away if I harvest a clean, straight ash sapling, compared to yellow birch, hard maple, and black cherry. I expect we'll miss it when it's gone.

Dubyajay

Discussion Starter · #16 · 9 mo ago

They're certainly in the state but mainly further south. I'm up by St Johnsbury in the Northeast Kingdom. I've had my eye out for hickory of any kind since moving up here 3 years ago without luck. My relative down the road lived in western Maryland for years and certainly knows what hickory looks like. She told me she had seen a shagbark on her land, but we haven't been able to find it. Still hoping! Have found a few hophornbeam but not many of the right size and straightness. I've read those don't steam bend very well. Have been scouting and flagging trees for harvesting in November. Quite a few nice ash and hard maple, including several crosshead-style roots. Some good yellow birch too.

Speaking of yellow birch, I was working on one from 2020 today and quickly buggered up the bark bad enough that I decided to debark it entirely. How do you get the loose, flaky stuff off and leave the rest intact? After peeling that birch and two ash blanks today, the appeal of leaving the bark on is becoming ever more clear....

See less See more

dww2

· #17 · 9 mo ago

For yellow birch I usually peel off only the longest curls. The rest I hit with polyurethane and sand down when it has cured. Yellow birch can be fixed. Check this out at the 2:20 mark:

Dubyajay

Discussion Starter · #18 · 9 mo ago

dww2 said:
For yellow birch I usually peel off only the longest curls. The rest I hit with polyurethane and sand down when it has cured. Yellow birch can be fixed. Check this out at the 2:20 mark:

Wow! That's really amazing! Thanks for sharing that and your other vids. The video showing the fitting of the YB handle on the maple shaft was hugely helpful. I'm a ways from attempting a two-piece stick; need to get a few basic pieces done first, but I may try hand-cutting some tenons on basswood or aspen scraps this winter for practice. I'm starting to keep an eye out for interesting roots. Do you find the brace and bit more forgiving or easier to control than a power drill?

dww2

· #19 · 9 mo ago

I'd say it was slightly easier to control, yes. Plus, if you happen to hit a hard spot or it catches in the wood the drill has a lot more torque and will either twist out of my hand or split the wood. The brace, I feel, lets you sense how it is cutting.

But don't put me down as anti-power tool. I'm just back from carving something on a stick with my Dremel.

Sokolva

· #20 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

Dubyajay said:
Hello everyone,

I registered and introduced myself about 8 months ago and then went silent because of a series of family illnesses that took up most of my time and attention. Apologies to anyone who answered my initial post and got no response or acknowledgment.

I'm interested in members' perceptions and experiences with different woods for functional sticks that go into the back country and need to handle real stress. I've looked at different datasets of wood-species density, hardness, and strength--tensile, compression, impact--and formed a general impression of where different tree species group in terms of strength and toughness. I'm curious how well that grouping fits the experience of those who have actually made and used sticks from various woods.

American white ash and European ash might be a good benchmark for comparison. White ash, of course, is the standard wood for baseball bats in the US, and European ash has a long history of combat applications from spear and lance shafts to faction-fight cudgels. My unscientific and subjective classification has four groups: (1) tougher than ash, (2) comparable to ash, (3) somewhat less tough than ash, and (4) maybe too weak for a functional walking stick. I've mostly focused on trees found in the northeast US, so will omit many that are widely used elsewhere.

Group 1: Hickories, hornbeam, hophornbeam, Oasage orange, others?

Group 2: Yellow birch, hard (sugar, rock, black) maple, elms, white oak, red oak, dogwoods, serviceberry (aka juneberry, shadbush, Sakatoon), hawthorns, apple, pear

Group 3: American and beaked hazel, red maple, paper and gray birch, American beech, black cherry, striped maple

Group 4: Aspens and cottonwoods, basswood, linden, black alder, pin (fire) cherry, willows, American mountain ash (American rowan)

I'd value feedback on the groupings themselves and also on the idea that group 4 is not tough enough to take on a serious back-country hike. I know aspens and willows are widely used in places.

I'd also be interested in hearing about peoples experience with native North American hazels. I have a nice stand of it, along with a few hawthorns, growing right in front to my house. The whole area was cut when I moved here in 2019. It was so dense and tall that it was hard to say just what was there, and completely blocked a lovely view of the White Mountains. I was delight to see tons of native hazel growing back and am removing the aspens, maples, and basswood saplings to encourage them.

Bill

Hey! I’m a new walking stick maker here, but have always been working with wood as a hobbiest and crafter. I can add a few thoughts to your list:
Yellow Birch (in category 2) has the same Janka hardness rating as River Birch, another species that is very widespread in the US and common in the wild. I found cut branches from a River Birch a year ago and made hiking stick from it that I’ve used twice in the field prior to finishing and really enjoyed. It feels very light, supple, shock resistant (as Birch is known to be) and strong. So far I’m very happy with it as my personal walking stick.
Sweet Birch has an even higher Janka handiness, but I haven’t worked with it.

Fig branches would also likely be far too soft in my experience, with their hollow middles.

I’ve used Bradford Pear branches blown over in storms and it seems like a nice wood so far! Solid, strong, fragrant, dense and tight grained but not too heavy. Also extremely beautiful and takes stain well. I’ve cooked with it and know it’s a dense wood that other woodworkers have enjoyed, so I wanted to report also enjoying it for walking sticks if you get a quality branch.

Always loved working with Beech wood. The swords we made out of them as kids were nigh indestructible no matter how many times they were abused. They don’t grow in my new home state, but when I return home to visit my parents I’ll be looking around for some fallen silverwood!

I just started a hiking stick for my husband made out of a branch of slippery elm that was being choked out by vines. The wood is incredibly dense and took me forever to saw through despite not being too thick. When I read into it, I found that the wood is famous for being resistant to mold and water damage and was used to make ships and water casks. Seems like a valuable quality for a stick in the humid and swampy areas where we frequent! Plus my husband is an avid fisherman and his stick is likely to get wet often. It’s funny how sometimes tbe perfect stick just turns out to be the right stick for the given person in more ways than you realize!

See less See more

1 - 20 of 20 Posts